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| Dieter-Untergasser |
good morning, are there questions for me? |
| Walter |
Dieter Welcome in our Chatroom |
| fredg |
Are your annual updates available in English? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
no, not yet |
| Dougall |
What would you consider to be the 3 biggest killers of domestic
discus fish? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
Dieter-Untergasser gill worms, intestinal worms and bacterial
infections |
| Dougall |
brilliant thanks and my other question/s is Do you think that
newly purchased discus (wild and domestic) should be prophylactically
treated for ecto- and endo-parasites during their quarantine period?
If yes what would be your treatments of choice be? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
every treatment weakens the fish and so I prefer current
quarentine time of 3 months to find out if there are any problems and
then I would prefer to treat the disease that is arising in this
current time. You can put in some fish from your own hatchery so you
can find out if the quarentine fish carry parasites or diseases they
do not show but can be dangerous for the fish |
| Dougall |
Yes I agree I think that is an essentaial part of the qt period. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
so in this time your own fish will show the disease carried from
the new fish (maybe new fish have resitance to the disease and so do
not show it) and so you can see it once your fish become infected |
| Stephen |
do you think a quarantine of 3 months is enough, or do you propose
some more biological treatments as heat treatment during that time? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
no, I wouldn't do anything until/unless the fish show disease. It
is possible to give heat treatment with 33-34C |
| Dougall |
Many recommend 'heat' as a treatment for all manner of maladies.
At what point (in your opinion) does environmental heat become
detrimental to a reasonably healthy discus; and is this level lowered
for a weakened and diseased fish e.g. one that has been suffering from
S. vortens infection for several weeks and in the process of 'cannibalising'
its own tissues. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
over 3-5 days then after this time slowly lower the temp to 28C
over 24-48 hours... it doesn't help all maladies... |
| Dougall |
Yes agreed, am thinking of how it is commonly advised for S.
vortens symps. and related symps. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
it is only to increase the activity of the immune system and so
the immune system can fight better against diseases and it is most
effective against bacterial and flagellate diseases |
| Dougall |
Yes agreed - that is what I am looking for - at what point is the
benefit of a more effective immune system start to become outweighed
by the cost of heat stress? |
| Dougall |
have heard of people taking their water to 38oC and above and this
has always caused me concern |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
I have heard sometimes that people treat with temp of 38C but I am
not a friend of this because it stresses the fish too much and
depresses the immune system |
| Stephen |
so whats the highest temperature you would set your fish on ? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
temp to 33C is not as stressful to the fish and increases the
immune system but if you go higher with the temp the stress is too
high and the temp is too stressful for the fish so I prefer the
treatment with temp of 33C, max is possible with 34C but then not over
5 days, only over 3 days and I think it is better to make temp
treatment over longer time (5 days) than short treatment in higher
temperature |
| Dougall |
I agree Dieter Ok thank you very much for your excellent
information Dieter - I better not hog your time there are others with
much more interesting questions - enjoy your day |
| Ron_Futrell |
If you confirm Discus have recovered from Plaque, should you
quarantine your Discus from others & for how long? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
yes, with black or discus dieases I have experience as I was one
of first who discovered it...I prefer after treatment to hold fish in
quarentine for 3 weeks after treatment completed and that during this
time the fish should have good nutrition with additional vitamins
because they must rebuild their mucus membrane. So it needs the time
to recover but with normal temp of28C and I am not a friend to keeping
the temp higher so I prefer to keep and breed the fish in a temp of
28C or lower (27C). It helps the fish to recover after the treatment
if you give in this 3 weeks a treatment with nifurpirinol. |
| Ron_Futrell |
Also, what area of the fish should be scoped to confirm diagnosis
of these organism's? Do you think secondary infections can be as
harmful as the discus plague? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
[Ron] yes of course because normally we have alot of external
parasites (unicellers) in the aquarium which normally do not penetrate
the fish but then fish are weakened by the plague or other disease and
it's immune system doesn't work well and so these unicellers can
mulitply and penetrate the fish causing additional infections |
| Dougall |
Sorry but have to ask - OK - assuming there is a 'discus plague'
what is the causative organism/agent and is it the same in all cases
of 'black discus'. If the organism hasn't been identified, what is it
'most likely' to be? E.g. virus, bacteria etc. and particular genus if
bacteria? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
plague or discus disease is a bacterial infection of the skin and
the species is still not systematically confirmed and so the
University of Duselldorf is currently working on this and maybe within
next few months we will have results |
| Dougall |
assume by the nifurpirinol you believe it is bacterial based or is
this for secondary infections and what dose of nifurpirinol do you
prefer? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
but the disease itself is possible to diagnose by appearance. So
when you take the treatment which I wrote in my book Discus Health
with neomycin sulphate and nitrofurantoin in a treatment over 5 days
normally the bacteria of the disease are treated and the fish are
healthy again |
| Dougall |
Speaking of books - your first earlier one - the handbook of fish
diseases - this I think is your best work - will this be updated or
perhaps a CD diagnostic version be available? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
Dougall yes I am working on this but do not know when it will be
finished |
| Stephen |
other question on temperature Dieter: I bought an used tank which
I want to use for discus soon. As I am not sure on what had been in
there in the past I want to disinfect the tank to be sure not to get
anything on my discus. So which temperature should I use to disinfect
the tank and should I do anything else to ensure that procedure. (the
technical stuff I want to use is completely new) |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
I have this problem that after treating infected fish I have to
disinfect the tank real fast in order to put in new fish for treatment
or just keeping/discovering another new disease so it is necessary to
be sure that no parasite or disease is transferred from the old fish
to the new fish. I start in the evening at 6:00 and fill tank totally
with water then I put in strong heater and increase the temperature to
60C and this needs time of about 1-3 hours (depending on size of
aquarium).
so when the temperature reaches the temperature of 60C I take care
that the temp is held for 2 hours then I stop the heater and overnight
let the tank cool down. The next day I clean all, wash out filter and
start the tank with new water but then it is necessary to activate the
filters because all bacteria are dead from the heat.
I have in other aquariums additional sponge
filters which I can transfer into disinfected aquariums and so it is
possible to start the tank again with the active filter(s) the temp disinfection kills not only all parasites and bacteria it
is an absolute sure treatment against all eggs of parasites which are
normally not treatable with any medication |
| Dougall |
How do you maintain a temp of 60C for two hours - do you just add
more hot water (I assum this is not done with standard store bought
heater/stats) |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
Dougall you must have a strong heater (hot water does not works) -
the heater I use is similar to coil type that water is heated inside
coffee makers. If you use hot water it's possible that the glass of
the tank will break |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
the temp disinfection kills not only all parasites and bacteria it
is an absolute sure treatment against all eggs of parasites which are
normally not treatable with any medication |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
be careful not to get the referenced heater inside the tank so it
should be fixed so only the heating coil is setting inside the water |
| Dougall |
is there a reason you prefer heat over chlorine bleach? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
[Dougall] I prefer heat because it is much easier than chlorine
bleach but disinfection with the chlorine bleach is also possible but
you should be sure after disinfection that all of the disinfectants
are removed and the tank is absolutely clean. |
| Dougall |
I was just concerned that some bacteria and cysts survie high
temps albeit they would not commonly be found |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
yes, it is possible that some bacteria or cysts will survive this
temp treatment of 60C but all bacteria which cause diseases will not
survive |
| Dougall |
I was thinking of water treatment and Legionellae bacteria which I
was taught survive to 75oC which is why I said not expected in tanks
;-) |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
dougall that is true but this bacteria will not multiply in the
aquarium system and so they will not be a problem for discus for other
fish - I think there is no danger for people |
| Dougall |
I agree - just hope there are not similar or heat resistant ones
around - Thank you Dieter your chat has been wonderfully enlightening
and interesting - have a great week end |
| Ron_Futrell |
Using 35c temp to stimulate immune system, is it possible to
control or kill intestinal flagellites with these high temps? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
[Ron] higher temperatures set down the quantity of flagallates in
the intestinal tract so it is possible to make this temp treatment not
with 35 but with 33 or 34C together with treatment of metronidazole or
nifurpirinol. This treatment you should do over 5 days then change a
lot of water and take out the rest of the medication with a good
active carbon. |
| Stephen |
concering desinfection: whats the procedure you recommend to use
on ph-meter electrode in special |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
Stephen a lot of chemical disinfectants poison the electrode and
so it doesn't work well after that, so it is not possible to disinfect
the electrode with chemicals and heat treatment. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
I dry the electrode with tissue or soft paper and hold it in the
air over few hours until it totally dry and then it must be calibrated
again but it is better to be careful and not to use the pH electrode
in other aquariums or water systems because it is easy and possible to
transfer bacterial infections and parasites from tank to tank |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
I prefer a way which is much more sure - I take the water with a
glass out of the tank and measure in this glass and then after, it is
much more easy to disinfect inside the glass before I use it in
another tank. I have several of these glasses to take water from
different tanks so never the electrode of the instrument has direct
contact with an aquarium. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
we have time for maybe one or two more questions |
| jmdiscus |
One question Mr.Untergasser: I have a pair : green discus and turq.
Their fry are red turq. How can i obtain green discus with this
discus? father and daughter, mother and son, brothers?? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
jmdiscus - I would prefer not to mix different breeding lines as
it is better to work in one breeding color (line) and so you have
fries which are the same colors as the parents |
| fredg |
[Dieter_Untergasser] in the USA confirmed Aeromonas infections,
multi antibiotic resistant are in our discus populations, what
treatment do you advise? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
that's a big problem fred |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
in future it will be a much bigger problem because a lot of
bacterial diseases build resistance against antibiotics so the best
way...is to isolate the bacteria to make an antibiogram to find out
against which antibiotics they have built a resistance then it is
possible to use an antibiotic which will work |
| fredg |
agreed, hobbyists are blindly using what was advised to one
breeder, ampicillin.. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
yes, fred it is a very good working antibioticum |
| fredg |
yes, for now. Would you recommend for hobbyists to try the older
non antibiotic treatments first? |
| fredg |
assuming they do not send a specimen to a university lab |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
but first it is necessary to prove/scope for the species of
bacteria you need to treat for and then it is possible to choose the
medication. It is the best way to have effective treatment when
antibiogram is done before, then you can be sure the chosen medication
is working |
| fredg |
yes Dieter, I fully agree, but refering to dealing with the
average, "I must use medictions now" type of actions. |
| Dougall |
would it be feasible to use a broad spectrum generic treatment for
gram pos and one for gram neg post staining? and not worry too much
about specific species? |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
it is better to use available medications in pet stores because
the most diseases can be treated with this (if unable to confirm
through university labs) |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
it is dangerous to use antibiotics without first confirming with
university and without controlling the affect by microbiological
methods because resistance of bacterias are caused when the treatment
is not done well, the information of this resistance can be
transferred to bacteria which live in humans and can cause resistance
against these medications when humans must use it against disease. So
aquarists should be very careful when they use antibiotics from human
medicine in the aquarium system |
| fredg |
Yes it is Dieter, but the pet industry in the USA, all antibiotics
are legally available without perscription, so they all get used. And
which is why I advise the no antibiotic first treatments. |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
yes, I know this problem fred and it is a big danger |
| fredg |
Very large here in the USA |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
actually everywhere fred, here in Europe it is not legal to use
such antibiotics without a prescription from vet |
| Dougall |
no they just put the abs into store drugs as 'trade secret' and
sell over counter :-( |
| fredg |
agreed, just a lot of other nations control the human antibiotics
differently in terms of the pet hobby, here all the human antibiotics
are legally and easily found for the pet trade without perscriptions |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
must go all, I have another appointment |
| Stephen |
ty for the Chat Dieter |
| Dieter-Untergasser |
thank you for your questions |
| fredg |
Thank you for your time, hope we can talk before two more years
Dieter. |
| Walter |
Dieter thank you for joining our Chatroom |
| Dougall |
thank you very much |
| Dougall |
yes agreed Fred |
| jmdiscus |
thank you Dieter!!! |
